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Live Interview with Mr. Adnan Oktar by Talk Radio Europe (Spain) (December 1, 2009)
Aralık 2009
THE INTERVIEWER: The most influential member of Islam - in a poll conducted by Reuters, he received 43% of the poll. So I am absolutely delighted to have him on. He is a regular guest on al-Jazeera, and he contributes to press worldwide. He has his own book out which he has sent worldwide on a subject that we are going to talk about tonight. That book is the Atlas of Creation. Now I intend to have a good chat with Mr. Oktar tonight about Creationism and his views. Because they are somewhat different to what you and I are familiar with and Darwin’s views on the subject. And he has been very relevant with the 150th anniversary of Darwin, just in the last couple of weeks, and that is why we have him back on tonight to discuss his views from an Islamic point of view. Without any further ado, we’re going to go straight to Istanbul. He is joined again tonight by his translator, Ahmet Babuna. Good evening Ahmet. How are you doing?
AHMET BABUNA: Very well, thank you. How are you?
THE INTERVIEWER: Very well, thank you. Thanks for joining us again tonight. I was just saying in the introduction that Mr. Oktar has recently been voted in a poll by Reuters News Magazine, as the most influential Islamic individual in the world. Congratulations, Mr. Oktar.
ADNAN OKTAR: And I thank you. Creation is a fact. It flies in the face of science and reason to espouse the opposite. It would be terribly dishonest to espouse the opposite when we have so much clear evidence, so many manifest truths. The right thing to do is to believe the facts shown by science. Two hundred fifty million, approaching 300 million, fossils prove the fact of Creation. There exists not one transitional fossil. There is not one transitional fossil of the kind Darwinists talk about. If they can produce one, I still say this; I have proposed to give them 10 trillion Turkish lira. But nobody has taken me up on it. As you know, not even a single protein can come into being by chance. Therefore, the path of reason leads to Creation, not to Darwinism.
THE INTERVIEWER: Okay, the best thing is just to summarize for the listeners, because the line is little bit shaky, Ahmet, and what Mr. Oktar is saying is that there are 100 million fossils that dispute Darwin’s theory. And basically there are no fossils that show the missing link, so to speak, between us developing from a monkey into man. Is that a good summary?
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, that is right.
THE INTERVIEWER: Okay. Now, can we go back some time? Because in ancient science Islam was one of the foremost, was at the forefront in the ancient science, along with the Chinese and the Greeks. Islam was very powerful in ancient science. Then maybe 600 years ago, when Islamic scholars banned the printed press, Islam seemed to fall behind in modern science. What does Mr Oktar think is the reason for Islam falling behind having been in the forefront of science to now not being there... Islam hasn’t contributed to the modern science for the last 600 years. Why do you think this is ?
ADNAN OKTAR: The sole reason for that is weakness of faith. Because over the last 700-800 years a great many people like Ibni Miskavayh who portray themselves as Islamic scholars actually introduced Darwinism and the theory of evolution into Islam. They secretly denied Creation. As a result, people’s faith was weakened, they lost their fervor and enthusiasm, and Creationist, monotheistic powers disappeared. Many scientists and artists emerged from Islam in the early days. Because they genuinely believed. Later, Darwinist and materialist thinking began spreading among Islamic scholars. Ibni Miskavayh first described this. As a result there was a contraction in Islam. We can still see the consequences of that today. But we are now in the age of Hazrat Mahdi (as). Darwinism will be brought down in the age of Hazrat Mahdi (as). Jesus the Messiah will return to Earth. The whole world will enjoy a Golden Age, and the Islamic world will produce a whole new civilization, new science and new beauties for the whole world, insha’Allah. That civilization will resemble the one in the time of the Prophet Suleiman. It will be reminiscent of that.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, now to go back to creationism, Mr Oktar started his writings or his campaign against evolution in 1998. Is that correct?
AHMET BABUNA: Yes correct.
THE INTERVIEWER: And since then he has written and issued, published numerous books arguing against Darwin’s theory. Now obviously he has come up against a counter-campaign from the scientific world. But in the tradition of the Quran. Ahmet, in the Quran, it says, Islam says God is the creator of all things. And I am just wondering, how much this is an argument of traditionalism against modern science?
ADNAN OKTAR: The Qur’an makes science obligatory. The Qur’an commands us to study the first creation of man, his nature, past civilizations, the characteristics of people who lived in the past, astronomy, the structure of the atom, the structure of matter, fruits, animals and everything else, using scientific methods, and to see the artistry and laws of Allah in it all. Science and religion go hand in hand. But religion demands that we be virtuous and espouse love, peace, brotherhood and friendship, that we treat people with compassion and forgiveness. It describes how the world should be used. That is why it commands science as the path. It makes it obligatory.
THE INTERVIEWER: Okay. Is that the answer for this? Yes?
AHMET BABUNA : Yes.
THE INTERVIEWER: But, to go back my point then, surely much of Mr Oktar’s theory is based on protecting the readings of the Quran.
ADNAN OKTAR: The Qur’an can protect itself, and will do so until Doomsday. Almighty Allah has made it invulnerable. But the Qur’an directs us to tell the people what is good and what is evil. This is a duty, an obligation upon every Muslim. It is Allah’s command. I am fulfilling that duty. Allah reveals that in the End Times Islam will rule the world, that Jews, Christians and Muslims will all amalgamate in Islam and will all be brothers. He says there will be a Golden Age. We have now entered that age. Hazrat Mahdi (as) has come. And only 10-15 years remained until the coming of the Messiah, insha’Allah.
THE INTERVIEWER: Okay, we have discussed that before, Ahmet. I am quite keen to talk about Mr. Oktar’s views on Creationism a little more if that’s possible? So to summarize for my listeners, Mr Oktar’s belief is that Darwinist theory is nonsense. And he backs this up by the fact that there are 100 million fossils that dispute this. Let me just explain for my listeners a little bit. What Mr. Oktar is saying is that all of the fossils found are related to animals we can find now, and there is nothing that shows those animals evolving over time. That’s the basics, is that right, Ahmet?
AHMET BABUNA: Yes, right.
ADNAN OKTAR: 350 million [fossils], yes, 350 million.
THE INTERVIEWER: Now, Mr. Oktar, can you tell me about your book, the Atlas of Creation? And what that book demonstrates and what it shows and where it has been distributed?
ADNAN OKTAR: The Atlas of Creation was printed in large numbers, and large numbers have been sold. I have made no money out of it and drawn no royalties, I donated it. So, the publisher has used those both for marketing and distributing. The sum set aside for advertizing was also used for distribution. These books have therefore been distributed in France, America and a great many European countries. It has made its way to a great many eminent professors, scientists and artists. Thus when Europe saw this book it realized it had been deceived all along. They experienced the shock and excitement of realizing they had been deceived for 150 years. They experienced the excitement of seeing the truth. They were amazed at the comprehensive and organized nature of that lie. And all of Europe is now in the process of shaking it off. There is almost nobody who does not now realize that this lie, this fabricated theory, was all a hoax.
THE INTERVIEWER: Well, a lot of people do believe in the theory, Ahmet. But let me put this to you. Islam is based on a belief, okay? As all religions are based on a belief. Science is based on fact. However, science still does not have all the answers. When it comes to science, we are still learning lots every day. Would Mr Oktar be prepared to work alongside scientists for the benefit of the future world?
ADNAN OKTAR: … There can be no world without science, For example, we saw the fraudulent nature of Darwinism by way of science. Had it not been for the electron microscope we would never have learned about the structure of the cell. We would not know about mitochondria, and Golgi bodies. Science showed us all these. Science showed us that the coincidence cannot form even a single protein. Paleontology is also a science. More than three hundred million fossils proving Creation have been discovered. Scientists discovered them, technology discovered them. Science also revealed the Big Bang. Science revealed the regularity of the stars, the perfection of the system on Earth. Therefore, there can be … no science without religion. Science is therefore a vital need.
THE INTERVIEWER: …in many Islamic countries today, Darwin’s theory is not taught and never spoken of. Yet, you have a country like Iran which is at the forefront of developing science. For example, Iran is doing research into stem cells, which even the United States refuses to do. So, for me, there seems to be a confusing message coming from the Islamic world on science.
ADNAN OKTAR: Islamic countries are where Darwin’s theory is most comprehensively taught. Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Libya all have socialist regimes. They all espoused Darwinist, materialist and even Marxist ideas. Iraq, Syria and Egypt had socialist, Darwinist and materialist regimes once. It was Darwinism that brought down the Ottoman Empire. So Darwinism had had a huge impact on Islamic countries. And it is widely taught. There is no Islamic country in which Darwinism is not taught. Anyone looking on the internet can see. Or anyone looking at encyclopedias. Students from Muslim countries also receive a Darwinist education in Europe. Darwinism is compulsory in all European universities. So there is nobody who does not receive a Darwinist education. Anyone looking on the internet encounters Darwinism. Anyone reading encyclopedias. Famous encyclopedias such as Larousse or the Encyclopedia Britannica describe Darwinism in great detail. All foreign magazines and scientific journals, the press, they all espouse Darwinism.
THE INTERVIEWER: Okay, my understanding is that Egypt has stopped Darwinism being taught?
AHMET BABUNA: Yes it is correct, Syria, Iraq , Jordan, Egypt , Yemen. These countries, they are all aware of the Darwinist education.
ADNAN OKTAR: These regimes have just changed. They were all socialist before. And therefore all Darwinist.
THE INTERVIEWER: They are educated with Darwinism?
ADNAN OKTAR: There was a meeting held in Egypt recently. Darwinists held a meeting. Egyptians held a meeting to discuss how they had ended up where they are now.
THE INTERVIEWER: Okay. Ahmet, I have a call coming in from...This has been all the way through the interview. One of my listeners has been phoning to put a question to Mr. Oktar. Would he be prepared to take it ?
ADNAN OKTAR: Of course.
THE INTERVIEWER: Okay. John?
JOHN: It’s me, ‘troublemaker.’
THE INTERVIEWER: Yes, go on then, John.
JOHN: If these people have some problem with evolution, I’ll try a simple test. Do they remember anything about the first car that moved itself on the fuel from...
THE INTERVIEWER: John, you are going to have to make it really succinct ok?
JOHN : Well, I mean, the internal combustion engine, well, look where it has brought us.
THE INTERVIEWER: Your argument is on evolution.
JOHN: In a life time. Is that not evolution?
THE INTERVIEWER : Okay, okay.
JOHN: Changing from a very simple machine to planes that fly people across the world. That’s evolution, isn’t it?
THE INTERVIEWER: Okay, it is evolution right, let me put the point over. You can hang up now and listen the answer on the radio, OK?
JOHN: I’ll do that.
THE INTERVIEWER: OK, cheers. Right, Ahmet, the point was, quite clearly from someone who supports evolution, that when the first combustion engine was made, look at the progress between then and now, and that’s evolution, and surely I think the point he is making is therefore that we started out as very, very basic and have evolved into the human beings that we are now. I think that was his point. And what does Mr. Oktar have to say about that?
ADNAN OKTAR: This is an irrelevant comparison. Excuse me, but it is really a bit ridiculous. Because it is totally wrong to draw any comparison between progress in science and technology and that in living things. Because Allah is always encouraging us in science, reason and culture. He increases our knowledge and culture. There is no increase in intelligence, but there is in science and culture. There can be progress in technology. It is not evolution if you fill a bowl with water. The bowl just fills up. Or you can put a pile of stones together and make a tower. That does not point to evolution, either. We are criticizing the idea of random, haphazard progress in living things. Darwinists claim that everything is the result of chance. They claim that unconscious, unseeing, unhearing and unthinking atoms came together to give rise to human beings. We are revealing the illogicality of that. Of course there will be technological progress, that is quite natural. But it has nothing to do with evolution.
THE INTERVIEWER: Can I just say to Mr Oktar, I accept the point that he makes there. It was not a very good example from the caller. But I asked the question I just put to Mr. Oktar. So Ahmet, in summary, what Mr. Oktar is saying is that too many coincidences would have to take place, and basically God, whoever that God may be, created man as he is now. That’s the basic line. Yeah?
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, correct.
THE INTERVIEWER: Okay, I have one more question. Sorry, Ahmet, I have one more question, and this is from another caller who is coming soon. This is a very learned caller, a noble gentleman. And he, I know from the last time Mr. Oktar was on the telephone, he wanted to speak to Mr. Oktar himself. Can I do the same? Can I take the question and then come back to you with the question?
ADNAN OKTAR: Of course, that will be fine.
THE INTERVIEWER: Jack?
JACK: Okay, I’ll talk quickly. Look, getting back to Darwin’s theory and evolution, well, we can’t pinpoint the beginning of that. However, look, there is an evolution when we think and know about the cavemen evolving to what we are now.
THE INTERVIEWER: Yeah, okay.
JACK: Okay.
THE INTERVIEWER: Okay, thank you Jack. Okay, Ahmet, did you hear that question?
AHMET BABUNA: Yes, I am translating.
ADNAN OKTAR: The idea of cavemen is an entirely fictitious one. There were timber houses at the same time and houses resembling tents. Bu since materials like timber, metal and even fabric are not very resistant they have gradually disappeared. Therefore, all that has remained is caves, and drawings in caves. Cave drawings are exceptionally high quality and fine pictures that any artist today would have trouble producing. They are highly esthetic. We can see that people at that time were very intelligent and had artistic tendencies, delighting in art. Musical instruments, whistles, have even been discovered in caves. It appears that they made music like an orchestra. Bearing all this in mind, we see that there have been primitive people and also some highly intelligent people at all times in history. And when I say primitive men, I mean there are many people who still live in the wild in Africa, and even in Asia, in central parts of Asia. There are still people living in caves. But there are also people who live modern lives in cities. That happened at all times. There have always been people who worshipped idols and the Sun, and others who believed in the true religion, Islam. That has been so since the time of the Prophet Adam. The image we have about cavemen is therefore a false one. There is no scientific evidence for it. I have set out that scientific evidence. The materials unearthed from caves show that people in those times sewed, were capable of tailoring, and that they were interested in art. The pictures in the caves have survived over tens of thousands of years because of the quality of the paint used and their technical strength. If you were to ask someone today, they could not manufacture paint of that quality. So it is wrong to maintain that those people were primitive.
ADNAN OKTAR: And our time is up. You will have to forgive us. Maybe we could do another interview as soon as possible.
THE INTERVIEWER: Ahmet, I am also running out of time. Can I just pass on my thanks to Mr. Oktar for staying so long with us this evening. One final thing. If any of my listeners would like to see more of his work, if they would like to see and see for themselves the Atlas of Creation, is there a website that they can look at?
ADNAN OKTAR: We can send the Atlas by mail.
THE INTERVIEWER: Can I just say many thanks to him again and thanks to you for joining us . My telephone lines have been nonstop all the way through this interview. It has been very, very interesting conversation and one can go on and on for a long time yet. Good luck and thank you.
ADNAN OKTAR: Hope to speak to you as soon as possible.
THE INTERVIEWER: Okay, that would be lovely. Thanks too much, bye bye.
THE INTERVIEWER: The most influential member of Islam - in a poll conducted by Reuters, he received 43% of the poll. So I am absolutely delighted to have him on. He is a regular guest on al-Jazeera, and he contributes to press worldwide. He has his own book out which he has sent worldwide on a subject that we are going to talk about tonight. That book is the Atlas of Creation. Now I intend to have a good chat with Mr. Oktar tonight about Creationism and his views. Because they are somewhat different to what you and I are familiar with and Darwin’s views on the subject. And he has been very relevant with the 150th anniversary of Darwin, just in the last couple of weeks, and that is why we have him back on tonight to discuss his views from an Islamic point of view. Without any further ado, we’re going to go straight to Istanbul. He is joined again tonight by his translator, Ahmet Babuna. Good evening Ahmet. How are you doing?
